Stamp of Approval

Is it highbrow, lowbrow, brilliant or despicable? In SundanceTV’s “The Approval Matrix” (premiered Aug 11), inspired by NY Magazine’s pop culture roundup of the same name, a panel of celebrity guests deem aspects of pop culture as one or more of the aforementioned. At their disposal is a board and a series of blocks representing those bits of culture, which guests place somewhere on the matrix–and then justify their choices. We spoke with the series’ executive producer Michael Hirschorn about the talk show format, the show’s polemical topics and tackling the Golden Age of TV. 

How did this collaboration with NY Mag come about?

I have a long history with NY Magazine. I used to be an editor there, so some of the folks that worked there are still there, and in my spare time I write magazine pieces. A lot of my friends come out of the magazine world because that was an earlier part of my career. So there’s a standing relationship there. I’ve talked to them from time to time, over ways to bring their brand to video, so when this opportunity came up with Sundance we gave them a call and they said great, let’s do it.

Did you always have SundanceTV in mind for this show?

Well Sundance had approached us about finding a companion for “The Writers’ Room,” which they had been having some success with. They were looking to expand more into that area, of kind of smart, high-end pop culture commentary. So we proposed this project.

How did you decide on topics? What’s the process?

We treat the first season as a 6-episode pilot, essentially. I think if the series goes forward it will likely be a topical show. Currently the idea was to introduce the concept with more evergreen episodes that dealt with broader themes in culture. So we were looking for big trends, resonant ideas that would prompt some interesting discussion. And I think we found them.

How much do you collaborate with host Neal Brennan?

Everything’s always a collaboration. Neal had a lot of say, as did Rory Albanese, who was the showrunner. He just left as the showrunner for “The Daily Show”—so he had significant expertise on how to put together a show of this sort.

The first episode’s topic, about the Golden Age of TV, has a lot of industry talk to it. Was there any worry that it would only appeal to more limited audience as a result?

One thing that we noticed–especially if you look online–is that pop-culture savvy has gone pro. People know who the showrunners are of the shows that they like, they know who the creators are. There’s a much more in-depth knowledge that gets fueled by digital media. People engage with their favorite shows, or movies or music in a much more detailed way than they used to, and this is a show that reflects that. Also, there’s lots and lots of consumer, pop entertainment coverage. I can’t speak for Sundance’s brand, but my understanding of it is they want to do something more sophisticated.

You’ve worked a lot of reality shows with not-so-highbrow subjects—Bret Michaels, Paris Hilton, etc. Do you have a preference when it comes to working on those kinds of shows versus The Approval Matrix?

[Laughs] I love all my children equally. I think that this felt particularly on the nose in terms of my interests, and I think it’s always nice to be able to do a show that’s smarter and more sophisticated and assumes more on the part of the audience. Given where I am now in my career this is an almost perfect show.

Do you agree with host Neal Brennan about reality TV being more on the “brilliant” side of the Approval Matrix?

I think some of it is good and some of it is just horrible. So yeah, I’m not a blind defender of reality. I think 80 percent of it is just horribly produced. And I think 20 percent of it can be brilliant. My general feeling about reality TV is that it’s currently behind the times. When reality first became popular, it was offering a meaningful alternative to scripted. But good TV is so amazing right now, and reality—not all, but more than I think it should be—is kind of trapped in an old and somewhat tired model. I still think it’s an amazing form to do interesting work. But people don’t realize the cage door’s open.

How do you think reality could be more interesting?

I think the topics could be more interesting, the way stories are told, I think there’s a lot of tired, very formulaic storytelling going on. Everybody on TV doesn’t need to have either be bald, have a beard…

Not every network needs a hillbilly show.

That’s right. I think that there’s a certain amount of fear holding people back.

Back to The Approval Matrix: Did you float any other ideas around in terms of format?

There was a lot of experimentation. We tried run-throughs with different formats with different ways of interacting with the board. There was an option of going in a much more high-tech direction, and then we decided that there was something pleasingly infantile about playing with blocks.

Some of the show’s topics are fairly polemical, such as the one on political correctness. And in certain cases Neal doesn’t respond to guests’ comments. Did you have to coach him at all?

I think Neal did an amazing job. He’d never hosted a show and so his learning curve was steep and he grew in the job in terms of authority and ability very quickly. But becoming a really, truly adept host is a deceptively tricky job. So I think given his lack of previous experience I think he did a great job—and he did a great job previous experience notwithstanding.

And the topics you’ve chosen can be very tricky.

That’s right. It’s a big job for a host, because you’re traffic cop, pundit and you have to keep the conversation going.

The special guest interviews, featuring comedians like Chris Rock and Jon Stewart, are taped previously. Where did they take place? And what was the reasoning behind that?

It was actually in my office, mostly. There were people that wanted to talk about certain topics but were hesitant to come on an untested show, and I think hopefully with another season some of those folks will be happy to come on the show itself. In same cases it was just scheduling—that they were really busy, and we caught them briefly in town and decided to take advantage of it.

Are there any episodes that didn’t make it through the process? Was there a lot on the cutting room floor?

There were a couple episodes that kind of ran long, where we were sort of struggling a little bit so we ended up shooting more and editing down. There were others that you’re seeing essentially hole. But in terms of topics, it was dynamic until probably a week before we shot. Some ideas got ditched as we were workshopping our ideas in our own studio at Ish Entertainment, and we would sift through some of them and just go, God, I’m bored to death. So we just got rid of those.